Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the against the Fence podcast with your host, Breezy. First of all, I just want to say Happy Christmas and a happy New Year to everyone that celebrates it. I hope you guys have a fantastic time with your family and friends and I'm looking forward to the content that we can bring you at ATF and myself on the podcast in 2025. You guys have got any suggestions, let me know in the comments below or drop me a DM on my socials. More than happy to to talk them through.
Really excited for this one. I kind of. I've labeled it as my present from from me to you in a weird way, but yeah. Today's guest is John Gooden, color commentator for the ufc, usually on the uk, European and Asian cards.
Today we sit down and we talk about him pre the UFC Cage warriors, what he used to do growing up, and then just discuss kind of his experiences in into where he is today. So I hope you guys enjoy, if you haven't already, like, follow, subscribe and enjoy.
Hello and welcome to the Against Offense podcast. Today we are joined by, dare I say, commentary royalty John Gooden.
[00:01:22] Speaker B: I love that.
[00:01:22] Speaker A: Thank you.
How are you doing?
[00:01:25] Speaker B: Yeah, doing all right. Doing all right. It's been a busy, it's been a busy year and I feel like a lot of it's catching up now as I'm starting to wind down a little cold taking a hold and all of that, but cannot complain, my friend.
[00:01:36] Speaker A: I wanted to touch on a little bit just to start off with, obviously you recently were in Maau, which I've never been to, but it was a really interesting card. How was it for you?
[00:01:47] Speaker B: Yeah, it was an interest, it was interesting. The whole week was interesting. I thought that I was going to have a more positive experience overall. So there are a few challenges going in just with the travel and just some other stuff like personally, which kind of made the trip less of a nice trip, shall we say. But we had a slow start. The prelims were quite tough, but then we had some extraordinary moments, a really worrying moment, maybe one the worst knockouts and kind of aftermaths that I've ever experienced with a UFC event. I've sadly been across a fatality before which was life changing for me. So yeah, those sorts of things are never nice to, to come up across. And when you're on a microphone, I mean you don't want it any time, but you don't want to be anywhere near a microphone when these things happen. But yeah, fortunately she seems okay, so all is kind of well. Apart from, of course, per result. So. Yeah. Yeah. But it was a straight. It was bit of a strange one for me.
[00:02:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Touching on that knockout slightly. It was. It was a weird dynamic, that fight. Because she was winning the fight, I thought, anyway. Yeah. And it just absolutely come out of nowhere. It kind of reminded me of the Whee. Rose Namah's head kick.
She. Yeah, she was that stiff. I was, yeah. I couldn't imagine what it been like for you.
I want to do a bit of a deep dive into you as a person.
I.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: Are you sure?
[00:03:21] Speaker A: I. I was looking through the Internet as you do, and I noticed that you. You have a. Your own kind of web page about you and you notably put on there that you're a left footer and an Arsenal fan. Before the UFC was the dream when you're a kid, to be the next big Arsenal player.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: No, it wasn't actually, no. I think from a sporting standpoint, I wanted to race cars. I've always been into. I mean, I do follow motorsports, but less. Less closely these days. But yeah, I love driving. Love driving, love racing. Not done loads of it. Nearly qualified to race touring cars in my early 20s, but didn't quite make the cut. So outside of that, it's always been martial arts and. Yeah, and combat sports. I did play a fairly decent level. I played for a club called Bedmond, which is where Vinnie Jones started. So through my. Because none of my mates did martial arts or combat sports, it's always been a very individual pursuit for me. So, yeah, to kind of spend time with my friendship group, I had to get back into football and so I played that throughout my kind of early to mid-20s before packing it in and getting back to fight sports.
[00:04:34] Speaker A: You've. You've dealt with high pressure situations as an Arsenal fan. Moments that leave you kind of on the edge of the seat. You've had a rocky few years recently and a glorious period early in the 2000s. Whether it's the last minute goal or the roller coaster of a title race, few things I would say as I spot Chelsea.
[00:04:53] Speaker B: Good result on the weekend.
[00:04:54] Speaker A: Yeah, very good. I was, I was. I saw it half time. I wouldn't watch the game, but I saw it half time. We were 2 nil down. I was like, oh, here we go again. And it was nice to see us kind of bounce back from that. So, yeah, really enjoyed that one.
How does the drama of being an Arsenal fan compare to the unprecedented predictability of a back and forth fight in the Octagon?
[00:05:18] Speaker B: I don't actually Think I've ever thought of it like that. As an Arsenal fan, I truly just, I love the way that they try to play when it all comes together. Like the Arsene Wenger era for me was, was very special. I, I really bought into his methodologies and, and his thoughts and not overpaying the players and trying to take a hold on like the financial situation. So I'm quite uncomfortable with the amount of money that's in football, truth be told, and it just seems to be getting worse. But then us fans, we keep paying for it, so maybe I'm in the minority there. But yeah, even, even the other game that we, we had the other day where we're starting to score everything from a set piece, it's not something that we've associated with Arsenal over the years. Maybe we add that one nil to the Arsenal route, one football back in the day. But yeah, we've seen a real, a real shifting of the styles and, and I like Arteta, so of course I'm an Arsenal fan. I'm trying to find the things to love about the club and it's a really exciting time. It's a, it's going to be hopefully a truly competitive season. I really want to see what happens with all of these investigations into Man City and stuff like that. Maybe I'm, maybe it's false hope, but yes, I'd like to think Arsenal try to do things the right way and yeah, I'm a season ticket holder. Haven't been an awful lot this season, but they've given us a lot to celebrate right now.
[00:06:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I'm on the same boat. We had a rough time as you know, with the takeover and stuff like that, and we had a rocky few seasons, but it looks like we're now kind of seeing the fruitions of the work. So.
[00:06:54] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you're right up there.
[00:06:55] Speaker A: So yeah, we'll see. Hopefully it's a Chelsea versus Arsenal title race. We'll see. It'll be a nice change.
[00:07:00] Speaker B: You never know. You never know.
[00:07:02] Speaker A: According a five round war in the Octagon gone take some serious endurance. I mean, to be able to do that for the whole card as well. But it's nothing compared to what you've accomplished outside of it. You didn't just train for it, but you also finished one of the toughest endurance challenges on the planet, the Iron Man Triathlon, which I've actually been to spectate in Belgium before.
[00:07:21] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:07:22] Speaker A: For those that don't know and correct me if I'm wrong, it's a 2.4 mile swim, 112 mile bike ride, and then to top it all off, a marathon. What was the moment during the Iron man where you truly questioned if you'd make it?
[00:07:39] Speaker B: When the, the first step of the marathon, when I tore a ligament in my knee.
[00:07:44] Speaker A: Oh.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: I was like, are you joking? It was one of those like kind of bite your fist sharp pains. And then I would, I thought, okay, what was that? Then I tried to go again and it would, it would sort of play up. And then I was getting between a couple of aid stations where I was able to kind of like run. But then we got to a point where I couldn't run. As soon as I went airborne, it was just a massive problem. So I essentially never raced the marathon. I had to sort of walk it, trot it, just get through.
[00:08:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:14] Speaker B: And we, we were trying for a kid at the time and the triathlon preparation was sort of getting in the way of that. So I knew that this was probably the only chance I was going to get within a significant time period. So I was like, well, I have to finish this thing. I've just got to get over the line. And that was, that was what I did, which was a real shame. So I've got unfinished business with triathlon and I was working in triathlon a bit last year with the professional triathletes organization, like calling races and, and it really ignited the spark again. But it takes some serious commitment. It really does that. Unlike sort of martial arts and combat sports practice, there's only so much you can train because of the, the kind of training that it is. But with endurance sports you can be out for like, they're out for 20 to 30 hours a week, like thrashing the body.
So it's, it's not only whether you're able to do it like physically, but then just a time commitment to these things is extraordinary. So they're, they're all very special athletes as well in their own right. You know, it's an, it's interesting comparing the fighters to the triathletes. And of course, Paul Felder got really involved in triathlon. So as a, as a good friend of mine, like we were able to, to share some stories and I, I was help, well, helping him, I was in the pool with him, like trying to help him with his swim a little bit. Just bumping into him and just making it uncomfortable. But yeah, he's, he's an absolute monster with any physical challenge.
[00:09:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And yeah, kudos. Did you, did you learn anything about yourself in that in that time, would you say there's any takeaway? You, wow.
[00:09:56] Speaker B: No, I've never wowed myself, I'll be honest, mate. But you'll. You'll do well to beat me at anything. Like, I'll never quit. I've come second my whole life. You know, I've been beaten up. People don't. I don't have a professional fight record, but over the years, I've been on the mats with really good professionals getting beaten up, and I won't tap and I won't quit. And it's caused my body a whole lot of pain.
I was never the most gifted footballer, but I was always the guy that would turn up to training. I would pay my subs. I would be there come rain or shine or snow.
And I'll always put in a shift. Like people have always said to me, my closest friends, like, Tenacity is. If I had a fragrance, it would be Tenacity by John Gooden. Because I just don't know how to give up with these things. And my dad's got my whole family, working class, you know, chimney sweeps, electricians, plumbers, like this. This is. We work hard. That's what we do. I'm trying to change things for the family now and be a bit smarter, but it just proved to me that I can overcome, you know, pain and some kind of mental demons just get through it. So I might not get the results that I want all the time. I'm never going to be the best. But you'll. You'll do well to see me at the. You'll do well to meet me at the finish line. Do you know? I'll be there. But will you be there?
[00:11:20] Speaker A: I love that. It feels like a challenge.
[00:11:23] Speaker B: Yeah. And I mean that in, like, a respectful way and hopefully an encouraging way as well. Because my approach to. Especially in the early days, my approach to the commentary, the only way I knew how to approach it was like, I would have fights because I didn't see a difference. Like, I've. I'm not a trained broadcaster. I had some ideas early on in my 20s, about being a TV presenter, and I tried it and it didn't work.
So what worked for me was being involved in mixed martial arts and then getting involved in the scene and then getting these opportunities. So I would approach it like I was seeing the guys in the gym. I wanted to train for it, and then I wanted to, like, just live a really healthy way and taper down into a fight, work really hard. And that's pretty much been My approach. So yeah, if it can inspire and encourage someone else that someone who doesn't have all the talent in the world and probably the foundations, then it can still be done.
[00:12:24] Speaker A: You touched on it slightly before and you were saying about your family history and about being an electrician and electricians, long before you were steering audiences through these fights and wars that we watch on tv, you were steering an electrical business into a new era, identifying micro generation as a game changing opportunity. Talk about having a knack for spoff two where the energy was headed. Pun fully intended. Sorry, that was terrible. Yeah.
How did you recognize micro generation as the future and what was it like guiding the business in that direction?
[00:12:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I think whatever I do, I go two feet in. So it was the family business and I was just looking to differentiate the business from what others were doing and probably about 10 years ago, I think mostly probably the government's, I'll blame them for lack of apprenticeship schemes etc. So it's quite an aging trade, you know, and it's quite tricky, right. You need quite a few qualifications. You need to have something about you to be an electrician, I think just because there's quite a lot of academic stuff that goes alongside with it. So anyway, a lot of the old boys, they didn't want to do the testing that was involved in your accreditations. They, they didn't want to do like the lighting control, property management stuff where you got to program things. So fancy stuff happens. And then the solar stuff was coming along as well and that was a different sort of skill set. And then there was some health and safety stuff around it as well. So it's just kind of just being a bit brave. And we had some quite high net, high net worth clients where we got some really, it was mostly domestic stuff. So my idea was, right, we can supply your power through solar, we can install a 21st century home, we can maintain it for you, give you all the certificates that you need and you know you're going to be set. So that's kind of what we were doing. Got into it a little bit but it was very tricky working with my dad. You know, he didn't always buy into these things. It was going to cost him money. All he wanted to do was, you know, change fuse boards and put in garden lights. Whereas my, my thoughts were a little bit more grand. But yeah, that's. It feels like a long time ago now.
[00:14:41] Speaker A: Now. Touching like really in the early days of your career before the UFC gigs and global broadcasts. There's a picture on your instagram where you're interviewing Davy Grant, who at the time was an up and comer with big dreams.
Fast forward to today and you're both in the main, mainstays in the MMA world with vastly different yet intertwined journeys. When you think back to that interview with David, could you have imagined where the sport or your career would take you to today?
[00:15:08] Speaker B: No and no. I. I obviously wanted deeply for the sport to be growing so that guys like Davey could have a, you know, a good financial reward for their hard work.
I also wanted the respect to be there for these athletes, and that was one of the things that really got me to start kind of banging the drum about mixed martial arts, because my coaches, you know, in my eyes, sort of my heroes, I thought they were physically incredible, technically brilliant, and they were doing stuff that all these other professional sports, men and women, did, in my opinion, and harder, because they were get. Whilst they were doing all of the stuff that I thought they could do, they were being kicked and punched at the same time. But no, if they walked down the street, no one knew who they were. And it's not all about fame necessarily, but respect and just having recognition for who you are, what you are and your achievements. I think that should be a given. And it just wasn't and still isn't in this country.
So to see the growth that we've had internationally and, you know, a little bit here in the UK as well, is. I'm very proud to have seen that and, you know, worked alongside it for as long as I have personally. Never thought I'd be here, mate. Never thought I'd be. Calling fights for the UFC was never really my ambition. It would have been nice, but I was just so focused on helping the sport in whichever way that I could, and then opportunities started to present. I think I was at Cage Warriors a couple years in and I wasn't really enjoying my job on site at the time, and I just thought, I really want to do more of that commentary and presenting stuff. And a few people were saying to me that I had a knack for it, which was probably worse then because I'm like, well, if I'm. If I'm more right at it, then I should be able to get a full time gig doing this thing.
And then when I didn't get a gig, I thought, well, I must be shits because no one's calling me and giving me opportunities. So, yeah, it was a funny old time. But then when the UFC were spreading their wings internationally and I was screen tested and here we Are today madness, crazy?
[00:17:19] Speaker A: What was the most instrumental thing for you? Because for someone like myself, who looks up to someone like yourself, it's always fascinating to understand what you feel like made the difference between you and the next person.
[00:17:34] Speaker B: I honestly think it was just having a bona fide passion for MMA without any ideas of grandeur and it going anywhere, like, I wasn't looking to earn anything out of it. It was costing me money. It was costing me my relationship. Fortunately, my wife has stood by me. We were using all of our holiday time for me to go work shows. It was cost. It was causing me problems at work because I would. I'd sit in the van of a lunchtime and interview a fighter or do research on a fight card, because I've got, you know, a cage warriors, a Kom or a Shock and awe coming up that week or the week after.
But I'm involved in this community, and this community has given me so much. You know, it's hard to sometimes remember that when I get quite a bit of. For my commentary or my interviews or whatever it might be. But ultimately, I was able to put my training bag on my shoulder and go down to a gym within reach in the Southeast, jump on the mat with people that were about to fight. So people that I really looked up to for making the walk, I get to feel them, I get to learn from them and their coaches. We'd stand down and we'd enjoy each other's conversations around our own personal journeys. And that's what this is all about. Now I get to call some of the most inspirational people friends. Yeah, people like Mark Goddard.
You know, he's. He's been there trying so very hard for the sport, and he's brought me into some projects as well, which. Which is a real thing for me because I think it shows that he recognizes that I've been around a long enough time, and I'm trying to do the right things as well, and we're aligned in our thoughts and hopes for the sport. So I think just being involved and working really hard, and maybe I was doing things differently, maybe other commentators aren't on the mat. Maybe they don't want to get punched in the face by a professional fighter. But for me, it is a privilege to share rounds with some of the baddest dudes around.
I got to. I got to grapple with Hamza. I've stopped doing MMA sparring these days. I'm, you know, 46 years old, and I've got a few scars, which I don't really want opened up. So. But. But grappling wise, you know, I got to roll with Hamza. I got to feel what he was like. No, I'm not particularly good, but I've actually gotten to be in the room with a lot of good people, so I do. I can benchmark a little bit. And I could see how special he was. So those things give me the edge, you know, And I think the people that really understand this sport, the decision makers, they. They see where there's value in that and how I can sometimes translate that onto a broadcast or an interview or whatever it might be, and I guess that's how I've managed to sort of hold down this gig.
[00:20:28] Speaker A: Yeah, it's super comforting to hear you say about earlier on, because I feel like I'm probably in that period now and trying to break through. Like, I'm supposed to. Like, I'm supposed to be working now, and I've taken a pause in the day to do this, you know, and I've got. I'm taking all these other opportunities to try and build something. So it's actually really comforting to hear that someone who's there has been through this and it's not just a. A big mess in my head.
[00:20:53] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's. It's really hard. It's really hard. And now it was probably a little easier for me maybe, because the tenant pool was even shall what it is now, but even since I've been with the ufc, peeling back the curtain, I'm missing. I've missed some of my closest friends, their weddings. You know, I'm supposed to have been an usher, and I've said no to go cool fights.
There are so many things that I've missed with friends and family.
My mum passed away, and then two days later, I'm on a plane to Abu Dhabi, you know, and then I had to work a show. The UFC didn't force that on me, by the way. That was a family decision.
[00:21:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:34] Speaker B: But that's just my commitment to. To the craft and, and, you know, just how I work personally, I guess. But I'll be honest with you, mate. Like, my relationship with my wife would probably be way better if I didn't have this job. But then I feel like I'm. I'm on this planet for. For a reason, and there's something within me that wants to belong to something. I feel like I can help. Some people might not see me necessarily as the way that I. Perhaps all the things that I've done, seen, explored, learned, and contributed to over plus 15 years or going back to 40 something years since I started in martial arts. So, yeah, I feel it's not necessarily the work that you see on camera, it's the stuff that happens behind that as well, and that sort. I'm just passionate about it, and I need something in my life to make this, this time on earth worthwhile, and this is my calling.
[00:22:31] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, it means a lot. So, yeah, thank you.
You touched on it, as with the. The grappling with Hamza Chimaev. An inspiration for you was. Was Louis Theroux and his style of doing. Doing an interview. And it's the same for me. I absolutely love that kind of being out there with the camera behind you and asking those kind of questions. What. Where did that come from for you? Because you were doing the kind of inside the octagon stuff with Dan Hardy and you're doing the commentary stuff. Where did that opportunity come from and what did that mean for you?
[00:23:03] Speaker B: I think I've always. Weirdly, I think I must have a natural, like, recognition for. For what works, because I'm not one of those guys that can really.
I'm trying to do it at the moment, actually. So, you know, you've got a lot of people, like life coaches now, and they've obviously read all the books and they've consumed all the content and they've repackaged it, and they can tell you what they read, when and how it's translated for them. And I've just. I'm just don't work like that. But I feel like stuff resonates, and then I'm like, huh, that will probably translate quite well into what we do. And when the sport was really young, there were just things that weren't available. So I've been. I've been trying to do this sort of stuff for a very long time. Before the ufc.
[00:23:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:51] Speaker B: And I would go to people that could perhaps help, and people have stolen my ideas through the years, and I've seen the results and how it worked, and I've been pissed off, but then I've been. There's been, like, a backhanded compliment in there for it. So when I finally had some resources to be able to do these things, then. Then I. Then it's worked out. And I know that sharing the camera with someone makes it easier on the other individual, so I'm giving away some secrets here. So I'm going to be doing some courses soon on how to ask good questions, like interview technique, presenting and commentary. And one of the things that I can tell you is that us being on screen together now is different to if it's just me and your voice, which is different to if I'm behind the camera, which is different to if we're in an auditorium. They. And therefore you have to change the way that you question things and you have to change your foreplay, if you will, in order to get the best out of your interview subjects. So I've learned that over the years, and for me, the best thing to do is be on there with them, share in the load and the kind of anxiety of bearing your soul and. And I feel like you get a better interview and you. And it becomes more natural and someone's going to learn more. It's not about me, it's about the other person.
I think I'm quite.
I don't have the most bombastic personality where I necessarily. I'm going to change the vibe in a room. I have, in my earlier 20s, maybe was a little bit more that guy, but as I've gotten a little bit more, you know, older and refined, I think what I can do is I'm not challenging in many ways that can shut people down. And I also just want to bring out the best. And I think people have learned that. So I'm lucky than some people that will be just starting out that if that bloke John Gooden, who's done a few things before, turns out, then I think he's a pretty safe pair of hands. So I might let my guard down a little bit, but it's taken a while to develop that.
So, yeah, that's. I found that formula worked for Louis. I'm not quite like Louis in character, but I'm not so many degrees removed. Maybe he's. So, yeah, I think it still works.
[00:26:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. And then if you. Yeah, I'll keep my eyes peeled for that course, because for someone doing something like this, I think to have an opportunity to see it from your perspective, some of the experiences you've got, it'd be super beneficial to be involved and to walk that kind of course that you put out. So, yeah, I'll keep my eyes peeled for that one.
[00:26:37] Speaker B: Cool.
[00:26:38] Speaker A: Everyone remembers their first, especially when it involves stepping into the world's biggest MMA promotion, the ufc. No pressure, right?
[00:26:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:45] Speaker A: Do you remember the first UFC event you called and what was going through your head before, during, and after the night?
[00:26:52] Speaker B: I don't remember the. The before, truth be told. And I think that there was a. An ignorance is bliss style to it now. I'm actually quite an anxious person, particularly like particip, like anticipatory anxiety, the sort of fear of the unknown. And that's why I prepare like crazy for everything that I do to try and just put myself in the best position for success.
But you just don't know what it's going to be like. And I, I had a run through in Las Vegas on a Ronda Rousey card, and no one ever saw that commentary. It was just for the UFC and for Dan and I to see how we could work and it didn't go well. Just there are many reasons for it, not necessarily my lack of, or my lack of ability. It was just the way that the UFC stuff is structured and I was using Mike Goldberg's notes and I didn't vibe with the way that he, he had his notes compiled. And yeah, it was really frustrating. I remember being like, I had a real oh shit moment going.
Jesus, this is. That was terrible. Like, it can't be like that when we actually do this for reals. Yeah, I was very conscious about my voice wasn't as powerful as Goldie's. They want an American style. British commentary is very different. And I've grown up mostly watching British sports, not NFL, a little bit of NBA, but didn't kind of remember it very, very vividly. So there are a lot of things that I got in my own head about. So there probably was some stuff going in, but to your. To actually finally get to answer your. Your question, it was like sailing the stormiest of tides.
The Cage warriors level of broadcast it and this, this is no knock on Cage warriors, by the way, but it is night and day to what you've got to accomplish during a UFC broadcast. I take in hundreds of cards to a broadcast, or did do back then. We've got a few things that are now digitalized on screens, but hundreds of scripts. Some of them don't even get used, but you've got to prepare for all inevitabilities so that just so much stuff going into it. And then the one thing that really sticks out to me is, you know, on the, the main card open where the presenters stand up or the commenters stand up and do their piece the camera and build the, the main card up. When we stood up, turn around to face the camera. It's like the UFC fans know what's going to happen. And so many people had gathered around our spot and were out of their seats. And this is even before we were live. Like, just as we're sort of getting ready to do. To do what we need to do. So they're still building up on the TV broadcast, and we're trying to get set, you know, the years in and get the lights ready, and all of a sudden, let me see if I can just. This, this is what I saw. Hundreds of these. And it just threw me. I was like, what the hell is going on? But what was also very lovely. And I can only ever thank Dan for this because people didn't know who I was. I was on his coattails. But people were offering words of encouragement. It's almost like it was a thing. It's like, go on, boys. Have a good one, boys. Yeah, go on, dad. Go on, John. I'm like, oh.
[00:30:13] Speaker A: Oh.
[00:30:14] Speaker B: So people wanted you to win. And I don't always think that people want me to win. I think there's a lot of people that would want my job and probably want me to lose. So that was a very. That was a very poignant moment for me. So I felt that was quite warming. And we did our first broadcast in front of the camera, and I was looking back on my Sydney one because someone's going to speak to me about that event next week, and it was shocking. I was truly awful looking back, but I just hadn't had the time to train. There's no middle ground between a local or just about regional promotion and the ufc. There's nothing in between, and nothing really prepared me for what I was about to embark upon.
So I've been chasing my tail ever since, and even to the day, I still get caught out. But then that's why it makes it challenging and interesting, and that's why I guess I continue to work so hard at my craft.
[00:31:14] Speaker A: I wanted to touch on him slightly. I know you probably get asked about him a lot, but as one of probably the most iconic British MMA duos, Batman had Robin, Sherlock had Watson, and for a while, obviously, you had Dan Hardy. Together, you two become one of the most beloved commentary duos in the ufc. Beyond being British, what made that partnership so successful? And then do you have a favorite behind the scenes story of you two working together first?
[00:31:43] Speaker B: Well, a few things come to mind. One, I've got to give Dan a lot of credit and. And I got to thank him for allowing me time to grow into the role. But also listening to me, I'm working with the biggest alphas that walk the planet and I. I think it's important for me to try and.
To try and learn as much as I can and try and help educate and test Myself in a broadcast and outside and like inside the Octagon show and even when we're having conversations and I'm going to get it wrong because I was a blue belt and an amateur MMA fighter and a novice ABA boxer. I have never been a pro boxer and a title winning MMA fighter, UFC fighting or a black belt.
[00:32:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:33] Speaker B: And I'm still not, you know, I'm still on my journey to black belt, so.
But, but I would say this and, and people, fans might not understand this when I say that it's important for me to try and fail, but to try and keep pushing those boundaries so that, so that the broadcasts learn and we can grow rather than being stuck in the dark ages where we, where we, we don't try and progress our knowledge of this sport and that's us collectively. So when I try and get it wrong, rather than him shooting me down, he used to do a really good job of not making it explicit and identifying my, the holes in my game, but gently helping everyone learn. So. And he. No one would even probably know that that was happening, but I did. And I'll always be like, grateful to him because not everyone's done that to me. Some people have completely buried me and, and even when I'm trying to be the sacrificial lamb so that other people learn, just don't think it's always necessary to do it that way. Yeah, I've got big enough pants, by the way, to understand and I sometimes know what's coming, but I, I'm true to my style and that's how I think we learn and how we develop. So that, that's one thing I, I think that we got on well. Like, I really respected him. I liked his company.
I miss his company as well. It sounds like he's dead, but he's not. But we just don't, we don't cross paths as much anymore. And again, we were aligned in what we wanted for this sport and passionate for it. And you saw that come out in Dan and people shot him down about it.
So, yeah, there's just a few things that came together really well and, and yeah, he was good fun. Like he's a bit of a geezer, you know, I'd like to think that I'm a bit of a geezer, so we could. He got my sense of humor. I got his super smart guy, you know, and I miss it, man, I really do. I never wanted to be the only guy in the uk, in the ufc. Yeah, I just didn't, you know, it's not how, why I got into this. I don't want to be the one who's front and center necessarily. I'll do whatever's necessary. But yeah, very fun times and too many good times to think of honestly.
We traveled the globe and we had some cool moments, probably discovering places for the very first time together. And you know, I've never been one to like smoke smoke weed. Dan loves it, but I remember him like introducing me to some strain of whatever it was in Vancouver. So we did it perfectly legally and, and it wasn't a horrendous experience. It's pretty cool. So. But just seeing the growth of the sport like together and the success of the inside the Octagon show was, was something that like I'm so proud of and I'm so upset that we don't continue to have it. But yeah, a lot of cool memories. Yeah.
[00:35:39] Speaker A: Yeah. I can only place it as, as iconic now.
So. Yeah.
[00:35:44] Speaker B: One thing is weird to hear by the way, because I don't, I feel like I'm not associated with it when someone says that.
[00:35:49] Speaker A: Really.
[00:35:50] Speaker B: I don't see, Yeah, I don't see myself as any. Anywhere near like the word iconic, you know. So. Yeah, but I guess it has played its role, hasn't it, in recent times.
But yeah, and it was nice to be a part of that.
[00:36:05] Speaker A: I think just as a, a British guy that's trying to break into this kind of media thing, seeing someone like yourself and Dan being having that role, you look back and I think I reflect on that as going, you know, two iconic individuals doing something that I wish I could do, if that makes sense.
[00:36:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I think timing I just lucky.
[00:36:30] Speaker A: One thing that I'm trying to improve at and it's part of, well, it's a large part of your job. Large part of the kind of behind the scenes stuff you do with fighters individually is, is weaving a narrative into your commentary and then also when you're to filming in person having a story and, and how do you walk somewhere through that story? And it's something that I'm struggling to kind of get to grips with. What was, what was your process for learning and telling a fighter story?
[00:36:58] Speaker B: Very good question. And it goes back to one of the motivations for me to try and like do do these courses. But here we go.
You have to gather as much information as possible remotely. Then you have to sit down and talk with that individual and clarify what's right, what's wrong. Then you have to cut all of the shit out of it and get to the very best parts. And that is a process of continually cutting out sections, cutting out themes, cutting out words, and distilling down to the goals. Right. And then you've got to find a place to put it in. And even this happened in Macau. You know, I said it wasn't one of the greatest experiences because in a fight, you haven't a clue what's going to happen. Well, you can sometimes see the rhythm of a fight and you can sometimes think that you know what's about to happen. But it can change with a head kick. Of course it can. And everything's finished. And I might be 3/4 the way through, a quarter of the way through, trying to tell a story to help the audience get to know a fighter better.
And then something incredible happens like that, and you're like, oh, that was clearly not the right time to start going down that road. But how the hell was I going to know that? You can't commentate with a crystal ball.
[00:38:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:23] Speaker B: So you take risks. Sometimes those risks pay off and sometimes they just don't. And then you look like a bit of a wally and people call you out on it, but it's really nothing that you can do about it. Because going back to that, trying to push the boundaries. If I didn't try and tell you the story, then it's X versus Y. And the beauty of fighting is good enough, by the way. But I want it more than that. I want you to know that that guy is a. Like to kind of pedal, and I'm not taking a piss here. To pedal like a John Anik, like meme. I want you to know he's a single father that's trying to get custody of his kid. You know, that's important to know because there are dads out there that are struggling and they could reach out to that guy and then they know that there's someone in their tribe. Right? Or it could be literally someone geographically from Peru, who leaves his home every single month to go to Brazil to train with a better team. But he's got a newborn and a young wife back in his village who now is leaning on his dad to make sure they're taken care of so that he can go and pursue his dream. That's fucking nuts, by the way.
[00:39:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:37] Speaker B: That's crazy. I leave my family. I think I said earlier in this conversation, this job has caused me problems with my marriage. And it's because I'm away from my family a lot. There are. And I'm. It's not lost on me that there Are guys even like Danny Roberts? I remember six to eight weeks per camp, he will leave Liverpool or wherever he's residing at the time. He will go to South Florida and he leaves behind his kids.
And as a father, I can't imagine what that's like, you know, to go and get kicked and punched in the face every day to try and put food on the table. And it's my job to help people understand the effects that that might have. Yeah, but it's hard to say that in a walkout or during action, but that's why I do the other stuff as well. So, yeah, really difficult. But the technical aspect of that is try and find the. The absolute gold, the red hot shit.
And it's hard because you've researched all the other stuff and you. And you've kind of. You get married to certain parts, but you've got to shake that stuff out and try and find the key ingredients and hit those notes when you can.
[00:40:45] Speaker A: Sounds like you've got some gold dust in podcasting. So I'm even more keen to. To hear that course now because you're exactly right. I do the research part of this and you can probably tell, and I've put it at the front end because I want to kind of get the person comfortable and get them feeling like, you know, oh, this guy's really spent the time, like, trying to understand actually who I am, not just, oh, how. What got you into mma? Oh, what's your favorite fight? You know, beyond that. Yes. But I want to be able to streamline that, so it's a bit smoother and a journey rather than here's.
[00:41:17] Speaker B: Yeah, it's trial and error. It really is. And by the way, you could be that technically one of the best interviewers, but someone's saving their story for Joe Rogan. Do you know what I mean? Someone in our sport, someone wants to tell it to Ariel Helwani and not you, despite how good you are as an interviewer. Yeah, it's difficult, you know, so you even your. There's like a weird thing where there is a standing in society where you. I've seen some terrible people, like, conducting interviews and they leave everything on the table, but they've got these hot guests because they got 200, 000 followers on. On the socials. That's the way of the world, you know, so. So sometimes you. You can't take it personally. You just got to try and make sure that. And believe in the direction that you're going. But yes, a bit of coaching, which is one of the reasons why I want to do it because no one was there to coach me necessarily. But I've done, you know, 15 years of trial and error and trying to refine the practice to see, you know, the different routes to take to get the best result.
[00:42:24] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm so on board.
One thing as well for myself personally is the kind of mental side of it. It can be quite tough sometimes because like you were saying earlier, when you're piecing stuff together and you're, you're second guessing stuff with your demanding schedule, trying to do all of this whilst traveling and as you say, away from the family, all the precious outside of work, how do you cope with, with that?
[00:42:54] Speaker B: Well, I guess to go back to when I was doing Cage warriors and my early days in the ufc, I was still an electrician and those, those days did not help one another. Like some people might be in broadcasting or, or something where that there might just be a little crossover. But standing with a drill, chasing out walls and pulling cables through lofts, there is no crossover with calling fights or interviewing people and, and storytelling. That's my job as a storyteller, essentially. Yeah, but, but you have to look at the stuff that you're doing and see how it can help you. And if Dana told me to sweep the floor after every live event in order to carry on sitting in that seat, I'd do it because I've grown up sweeping the fucking floor. Like that's what I do. I was, I was the, I was a qs, the qualified supervisor. I signed off all the blokes work, but I would go on site and I would sweep the floors and I would pack the vans up and I would talk to the clients and make sure everyone was okay.
You've got to be willing to do everything. And that's just how I've been brought up.
So it was hard back then, doing everything all the time and trying to lead my own martial arts journey as well. And it should be easier now. Ages is catching up with me a little bit. Uh, but there are quite a few hours in the day, but you've got to try and find a bit of balance. And my wife is, is really good at challenging me. So I'd say, you know, sometimes it's those people around you that can really help or hinder your progression. Yeah, but you, you've just got to try maybe with time management and prioritize, prioritization, see, see what you can do. And you've got to be all in if this is what you want. It's hard to recommend this line of work or to be a fighter to anyone, but when it works, there's nothing better. But it's very, very difficult to turn around to someone and say, put your mortgage, your home on the line to go all in on this.
So I would never do that, but I would just try and be realistic and tell people all of the woes and the cuts and the scars along the way.
[00:45:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
Having commentated and presented for the UFC for the past, I mean, it's been over 10 years now, I think.
What's one bit of advice you'd give to someone if you're going to leave something behind, if you know what I mean? So say I wanted to break in in the next 10 years time. What's changed now? What would you change going forward?
[00:45:40] Speaker B: Well, I can only talk from personal experience, and mine is start from the very bottom. Make your mistakes on the way up. So work on amateur shows, work on low level pro shows, then work on the pro shows. And in whatever capacity, by the way, this, this could be on the organization stuff like fighter relationship aspects or the actual promotional elements, whatever it might be for you and I. If it's the broadcast sense. Yeah, just get involved in the journeys of people early on because some of them will break through and they'll remember that you paid them attention. I've certainly. It's maybe running out now because it's been like 15 years, but then some of those guys have become coaches and then they, they then tell their student, oh, no, you should, you should talk to that guy. He can, you know, he might be a good springboard for you. So, yeah, I definitely say that. Work really hard. Um, and this is now becoming a bit of a thing and I'm not sure I like it, but my, the thing that comes up a lot at the moment is work pretty hard and don't be a dick, because I've seen quite a few people that are far more talented than me over the years. They are, they're better broadcasters in all aspects, you know, male, female. But perhaps they're difficult to work with.
I've never been someone to brown those necessarily, but I'd like to think I'm not offensive in people's company.
[00:47:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:47:10] Speaker B: So I'm maybe that's just like my parents and my, my circle of friends have helped round out some edges there. I'm never going to be the guy, like, who cruises to the top and breaks through and do you know what I mean? I'm just not that guy who's going to move the needle in, in that way. Don't really want to. It's not been my ambition. I'm here to help and so yeah, you, you, if you want to help people, then you can't be a dick. So that's, that's, that's one thing I'd say. Just, just work really hard and don't be a dick.
[00:47:41] Speaker A: I'm gonna finish this off with some rapid fire questions.
Quick, quick answers, no overthinking. What's your favorite fight you've ever ca.
[00:48:00] Speaker B: Oh dear.
[00:48:01] Speaker A: There's so many.
[00:48:02] Speaker B: I think. Well, you know what, there's so many going through my mind. But you're saying quick fight, so I'm going to say Ivan Bushinger versus Conor McGregor.
[00:48:10] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. Earlier. Okay.
[00:48:12] Speaker B: It was early and it was an incredible fight. And probably as Connor has reminded me over the years, if it wasn't for that fight, I might not have the position that I have right now.
[00:48:21] Speaker A: Oh really? I'm gonna have to go back and listen to that. I was, I thought you're gonna say. Because you commentated the Buckley spinning kick, didn't you?
[00:48:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I did. I'm not necessarily super proud of that. Is real life ninja stuff. I mean it's, it's, it's hanging around. It's not, it's not the most egregious way to end a fight. But also like Bisping silver was massive for me because I, I wanted to fight like Anderson Silva. That was, I love that style. And Michael Bisping is Michael Bisping. Yeah, is the guy from the uk. So. And that fight was very dramatic. So it's probably between those two off the top of my head.
[00:48:57] Speaker A: Okay. Your go to meal after a long broadcast.
[00:49:01] Speaker B: After a long broadcast. We don't eat. It's typically a vodka tonic, but back home my wife just creases up. I do a lot of cooking here like, so my lunchtimes will be mashed potato and baked beans and then it would be something like fish fingers or chicken nuggets or like plant based alternatives of those as often as I possibly can have them.
[00:49:29] Speaker A: That sounds quintessentially essentially British baked.
[00:49:32] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:49:33] Speaker A: Mashed potato.
[00:49:34] Speaker B: Thank you very much.
[00:49:35] Speaker A: A fighter that you think deserves more recognition.
[00:49:41] Speaker B: Sam Patterson from Team Crossface. Of course, he's, he's one of them. Charlie Leary from Team Crossface who I don't think we're going to see fighting again. But you know, 35 Pro, I think it was coming up now, fighting, I mean, I think that market forces do the right things, truth be told. So If. If you know about them and they, you know you're celebrating them, then that's probably for. For the right reason. If you don't know about them 80% of the time, there's. There's maybe a reason for that, but I think that.
[00:50:17] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:50:18] Speaker B: Yeah, let's go with that.
[00:50:19] Speaker A: Interesting. Okay. One bucket list location you'd love to call a fight in.
[00:50:25] Speaker B: Oh. Oh, well, I think it. Right now it's got to be anywhere in Africa.
[00:50:30] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:50:31] Speaker B: Because it's been. It's been spoken about for so very long.
[00:50:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:50:35] Speaker B: And it's. It's kind of an. It's untapped for the ufc so to go there, and I've been very lucky unlocking a number of countries and sometimes territories as, like, the international guy.
[00:50:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:50:48] Speaker B: So I, I probably. It's probably going to be drickers duplicity. So if he can. If he can keep his belt, it probably means it'll be a pay per view.
[00:50:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:50:57] Speaker B: So therefore, I won't be on the call, but I might get to go along. But, yes, I think anywhere in. In Africa would be pretty cool.
[00:51:04] Speaker A: Cool.
Thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it.
[00:51:08] Speaker B: Thanks for having me on.
[00:51:09] Speaker A: Thoroughly enjoyed this.
And I'll do an outro afterwards. Don't worry about that bit.
[00:51:15] Speaker B: Okay.
